萝莉视频

Interview 1: Ananta interviews Dr Radhi Gupta

Ananta Dave  

Hello everyone and welcome to the Thrive in Psychiatry podcast, which is part of our Thrive in Psychiatry campaign by the Royal College of Psychiatrists. I'm Dr Ananta Dave and I'm the Presidential Lead for Retention and Well-being at the College.  

And this year we are running the annual campaign themed around retention because as a College we've done well around recruitment. And the idea this year is to look at how we can retain those who choose psychiatry as a profession and how we can help them thrive.  

So this podcast covers the topic of taking a break. So psychiatrists at whatever stage of career they are in or they are at, do take a break. And we want to know what it is that we can do as a College and as employment organisations to ensure that the break works out in the best way possible and that it helps our colleagues return to work at a time that they are able to and that they would like to choose so that they can continue in their career and most importantly thrive in psychiatry.  

So as part of this campaign along with the podcast we also have on the website - so there is a Thrive in Psychiatry link on the Royal College of Psychiatry's website - and there you will find a series of blogs - some excellent blogs and insightful ones which have been written by colleagues on various topics and there are blogs around taking a break as well.  

So please do have a look at our website. You'll get some more information about the campaign.  

There are links to resources, articles, and there is also a feedback form which you can use not only to feedback on the podcast series and what you would like to see covered, but generally about the Thrive in Psychiatry campaign and what topics you would like to see covered and what it is that we can do differently around this very important issue of retention.  

Now, before I go to our speaker, a podcast guest who is with us, I just wanted to very briefly talk about how we might conceptualise a good break. Now, I know that sometimes breaks can happen unexpectedly. People need to take a break for unexpected reasons, for things which are difficult in their life or work at the time, and that it might be difficult to then plan what that break ought to look like.  

But whatever the reason for the break, whether it is something positive or whether you've been forced to take a break, what can be done is a combination of good support by the immediate line manager, by your medical director or colleagues to help you then navigate the break as effectively and as sensitively as possible to clarify some expectations around what will happen in the break. 

And also I suppose to prepare for whenever it is you're ready to return if that's what you would like to do. 

I think for me it's very hard to be prescriptive and exhaust everything that might be covered in a good break but certainly there is something about the attitude and the approach of your line manager or medical director where you don't want to be judged, where you don't want to be thought of as less than, or not committed, or somehow not interested, where you want to be supported as compassionately and sensitively as possible around a break.  

However, even with all these intentions, breaks don't always turn out the way that you planned them. So we are here to listen to a couple of our psychiatry colleagues as to how it has been like for them.  

So I'm now joined by Radhi, Dr Aradhana Gupta.  

Welcome, Radhi, to this podcast. And I'm so happy that you're able to make time for this. And thank you for taking part in it. 

So could you begin by introducing yourself briefly, your name, where you work, what stage of your career you're at? Thank you. 

Radhi Gupta  

Thank you so much for such a lovely introduction, Dr Dave, first of all, and for having me on the podcast. 

 So a little bit about me, my name's Aradhana, but I go often by Radhi. I am currently working as a specialty doctor, and I've had a wonderfully and sometimes challengingly diverse route into psychiatry.  

I've done approximately four years in psychiatry now. Initially I started as a trust-grade doctor and then went into and pursued core training and I'm currently taking a career break to go into specialty training in the future. 

 Ananta Dave  

Excellent. Already that's very intriguing, Radhi, and I know your story of, you know, entering into psychiatry has not followed the usual route. So perhaps we can then move on to what it is... I mean, I know that you came into psychiatry, you know, as I said, after some thought and having pursued something else.  

So could you tell us firstly how you came into psychiatry and then how you came to taking a break because I think that whole story might be of interest and hopefully, you know, is also, you know, it can give hope and inspiration to others who are in a similar situation. 

Radhi Gupta 

So I graduated from the University of Cambridge in 2015 and did my foundation training in Shrewsbury and Telford, followed by that I wasn't 100% sure what I wanted to do as a specialty.  

I dabbled in a few things and fell into psychiatry just before the time COVID hit.  

So I've had a very unique perspective into joining psychiatry.  

I joined psychiatry at a time where it was very challenging for not just me, but for a lot of other people and medics and it has significantly strengthened my belief in the career itself, the profession of psychiatry, the importance of psychiatry and it's made me a convert to the cause as it were. 

 To answer your question, I wasn't 100% sure whether I wanted to pursue medicine, even whilst at medical school.  

And then pushed myself through it, got through the end, started foundation training. And again, there were lots of challenges along the way that questioned my drive to pursue medicine. 

Along the way, I have been extremely fortunate to have come across some amazing professionals who have supported me, encouraged me, and shown me sort of a way to practise medicine in today's day and age, and really been an inspiration as individuals on how to get through some of the challenges of modern day life and modern day medicine. 

So with that very roundabout answer, I finally started my career in psychiatry as initially a locum and then really enjoyed it.  

I found it extremely fulfilling as an individual and then started as a trust grade and realised that I really did, this was my niche of choice.  

So decided I wanted to pursue psychiatry and applied for core training. And I'm again, very, very grateful that I've had some wonderful clinical supervisors, educational supervisors who have supported me throughout core training. And I really cannot credit them enough for my journey. 

Ananta Dave  

Yeah, thank you, Radhi. I mean, firstly, I'm so glad that you've chosen psychiatry and you're continuing.  

I’m glad that you're a convert because, sometimes the choices that we make after a lot of consideration and after having tried other things, perhaps, you know, we come to psychiatry a bit later, but perhaps, you know, a more informed choice and, you know, will help you to engage with it better.  

So I'm so happy (a), you continued in medicine after some very trying times for you, but also that you chose psychiatry.  

I think from what you've said, firstly, we cannot underestimate the importance of individuals who influence you, whether as mentors, sponsors, supervisors, they play a huge role, whatever their own career stage or whatever they're doing.  

I think that whole support by individuals is so important in helping us make choices and continue. But also you've had experience of working as a trust grade doctor, now specialty doctor.  

So it shows that you can actually move from training to specialty grade or SAS grades and vice versa. And that there isn't any one set route that you have to follow as long as you're able to do something that actually engages your full interest and that makes you want to continue in the profession.  

And I know that after having done your medical degree at the University of Cambridge, your experience has been in the Midlands, isn't it, various parts of the Midlands.  

So, good to know that, good to know something of your journey into psychiatry.  

Now, tell us a bit about how you came to take a break and what that was like, the good and the bad of it and you know what you've gained learned from it. 

Radhi Gupta 

My reasons for taking a career break have been different at different times. 

Initially, I wasn't 100% sure if I wanted to pursue medicine and that was due to a variety of sort of personal reasons and personal struggles that I was going through at the time. 

When I finally decided that I did want to pursue it, that's when I realised that the traditional route wasn't necessarily tailor-made for me, and I needed to carve my own way of doing medicine and thankfully, increasingly now there is the option to do that.  

Organisations and the Royal College in particular have provided a variety of routes that people can decide upon to pursue their chosen career paths. 

The good bit about taking a break is obviously the fact that it gives you time to consider what other challenges you might have and how to deal with those challenges. And it gives you the time to recuperate and come back refreshed with a new perspective on how to maybe cope with some of the challenges, both personally or professionally.  

I think some of the drawbacks of taking a career break, which aren't necessarily always spoken about, is that it does leave you a bit socially isolated because you have, for whatever reasons you decide to take your career break, you suddenly become out of sync with the people you have progressed with so far.  

And unless a concerted effort is made to stay in touch with them, a lot of the day-to-day relationships that you might have with professional colleagues talking about challenges at work or just where they are in their stages of life, one loses that synchronicity. And so coming back after a break can be quite challenging.  

One might have one's own thoughts about taking the break. For some people, it might have been perceived as a failure.  

Briefly, that was the case for me. I felt that I was not performing. And that's why that led to the break.  

But what I think on reflection, the break has allowed me to do, is really develop some skills of resilience, skills of how to manage challenges at the workplace and juggle that with professional, personal, sorry, challenges.  

So overall, even though your trajectory might be different to other people's, one shouldn't underestimate what one has learnt as part of the journey and what I've now recognised is the value of the journey rather than necessarily the destination. 

Ananta Dave  

Thank you. That's a very honest and open reflection, Radhi, and I think it will resonate with many people because from what I've seen, from what you've said, even when you take the break for positive reasons, there will still be some consequences of it that you might not have foreseen or that might come across as not very helpful. For example, the isolation that you mentioned and you use the word synchronicity that you become out of sync.  

And I think that's a beautiful way of expressing what it is.  

But also in your case, when you took the break, because initially you weren't sure whether you wanted to continue in the profession, let alone choosing a specialty, it might not always turn out the way you want and it might lead to some positive things. You learn a bit about yourself. I think you've mentioned about how it can lead to regenerating. 

You regenerate yourself. You learn how to recognise the signs that something is not quite right. 

 And those are very important points for all of us, for any of us at any stage of our careers, to have the courage to say, I need to pause, something doesn't feel quite right, or something is happening that I need to deal with. I think so important.  

So you also mentioned, I think, that what began as a short break, or you thought it would be a short break, and it became a bit longer.  

So I'm not sure whether you can tell us how long you actually had a break and also after that what it was like to return to work, I mean initially to the profession and then to psychiatry. 

Radhi Gupta   

Yeah, so I initially took a break for about six months and I this was before my joining psychiatry. 

Initially I took a break for about six months which progressed to about a year and what I found on returning was exactly what we've discussed before – so it allowed, that break allowed me to really build on my own strengths, to start to recognise what strengths I had, and to strengthen my ways of coping with some of the stresses.  

And I pursued a lot of hobbies at that time. I decided I wanted to do dancing, so I started both choreographing and teaching Indian Bollywood dancing.  

I have a background in classical Bharatanatyam, which is a form of Indian classical dance. And so I rejuvenated my interest in that. 

And that allowed me to build on my levels of confidence and my own identity. It gave me the skills that I needed to be able to perform well in the workplace.  

And on my return, what I found was, it gave me that fresh start. It allowed me to reconfigure how I wanted to approach medicine, how I wanted to approach whatever career I chose or whichever specialty I decided to choose.  

And then when I started psychiatry, I found that it's such a unique specialty because whilst you're helping other people, it also gives you the skills to help yourself. 

And in medicine, there's this mantra of see one, do one, teach one.  

And you end up, whether consciously or subconsciously, practising what you preach.  

So it's - I found that it allowed me to mature both in age and in wisdom, worldly wisdom, and gave me a lot of confidence to approach my career in a different way.  

The drawback was the lack of synchronicity as I mentioned.  

However, there was, it was a mixed blessing because it allowed me to actually get to know a lot more people.  

And I came across some amazing consultants, middle grades who had had similar breaks in their careers and they gave me a way of that blueprint on how to maybe deal with some of the realities and challenges of modern day medicine.  

So it worked out. 

Ananta Dave 

What I love about your story, Radhi, is that although you've mentioned about taking a break because you weren't sure what you wanted to do next, there are so many positive words that you've used.  

The rejuvenation, the reconnecting, becoming mature, discovering your interests. So I think that's a fascinating take on what you've learned from being on a break.  

But also you mentioned how people have helped you. 

And the middle grade doctors you talked about are our SAS doctors who - you are one of them now.  

I think repeatedly in every podcast episode, I've learned so much about how SAS doctors navigate their careers and what we can learn from their journeys.  

So, you've mentioned some of the things that you found difficult.  

What do you think helped you from a workplace point of view, from an organisational point of view, to return to medicine and to your career? 

What is it that helped from an organisational perspective?  

And what do you think organisations, whether they are trusts, other employing organisations across the UK, or indeed, you know, the Royal College with their work, what do you think helped you and what do you think organisations can do to help people returning from a break? 

Radhi Gupta 

What worked for me was a very supportive team.  

When I rejoined medicine, my direct supervisors, colleagues were all extremely supportive. And as an organisation, there was a lot of flexibility in how I returned. So I had a phased return into work which allowed me to build on the skills I already had.  

With any career break, it's really important that we try and maintain the skills, because there is a very quick rate of attrition the moment one stops working. So in order to rebuild or regain one's confidence in one's skills, a phased return was very helpful for me because it just... I hadn't lost the skills, but it just gave me that confidence that I still had those skills.  

As an organisation, I think a non-judgmental approach is one of the most important ways we can support people.  

As individuals, we have pretty much no idea what is going on in another person's life unless they choose to share it with us. 

 And a lot of things can be quite emotional and a bit too personal for people to share. So it's very important that when we are supporting someone, and I've been in that privileged position where I have been able to support colleagues, other core trainees and medical students in my own role. It's very important that we approach it with a sense of curiosity as opposed to judgment. 

 As medics, we have already proven our worth. We have already gone through medical school, gone through a variety of challenges in our own lives.  

And so we have to recognise that in other medics. If someone might be underperforming or there might be reasons for their break, it's really important that we ask how we can support and try and tailor it to an individual.  

That support should be person-centric. And I think that's one of the beliefs, one of the principles that you've mentioned in your charter, the retention charter as well, is that person-centered approach. For me, that was what made the difference.  

I cannot credit my colleagues enough for supporting me through my various challenges. There were times when things did not go quite to plan and they could see that it was not due to a lack of trying and so they put in that infrastructure to help me through those times. 

Ananta Dave  

No, thank you. You know, if people are listening to this podcast, especially organisations, those in senior leadership, line managers, just listen to the last few minutes about what Radhi has said about what helped her.  

And Radhi, I think you've articulated beautifully the things that helped you when returning to work after a break.  

And, you know, I couldn't have summed it up more beautifully, you know, about what it is that we can do. 

 So firstly, thank you to all of those, all of our colleagues who supported you behind the scenes.  

We don't credit them enough and I can see a great many people have helped you. So thanks to all our colleagues who not only have helped you but colleagues in similar situations who have taken a break and you've done your work to make sure that people came back to a career and profession they love when they've taken a break, and that gives us a blueprint I think. 

 And you've very helpfully referenced the Retention Charter, and actually that's a good cue for me to say as well.  

The Retention Charter is an important part of the Thrive in Psychiatry campaign.  

And in fact, that's the work that preceded the campaign when we released the charter back in July, but it's now shared more widely on social media.  

Do have a look at the charter. It allows organisations to self-assess where they are in terms of their good practice around retention and it has a quality improvement approach so that you can then look at how you get to the next level.  

And it charts this work across four domains which capture the main reasons why people stay in psychiatry or might find it challenging.  

So thanks, Aradhana, for a reference to the charter as well. Is there anything you feel that you want to add about what organisations, so employing organisations or the Royal College can do further in order to support people who have taken a break and are planning to return? 

Radhi Gupta 

I think sometimes after people have taken a break, the return to work can be challenging because you are starting at a running pace.  

You have to join the rest of the workforce at their pace. So sometimes you can really benefit from being given the resources overtly, rather than necessarily having to search for the resources yourself.  

So I think improving awareness of the resources that are out there, by the organisations themselves can be extremely helpful.  

We are, as medics I feel a lot of us are very good at helping others but we might not be as good at helping ourselves and so sometimes just like we signpost our patients to various resources it's helpful to be signposted and almost your hand held through the process of returning to work. 

Ananta Dave  

No, thank you. And again, I'm going to go back and check on our Royal College website, not just in the Thrive and Psychiatry section, but overall in our workforce website to see what resources we have. And you're right, I think that's a good call for us as a College to have a look. But also each of the employing organisations, if you're listening to this podcast, please go back and see what resources you have available readily, consistently so that people don't have to search in terms of helping people to return to work after a break. 

And I think two important points you said, Radhi, and it's a good way of ending this podcast is bringing it back to our work as psychiatrists to help patients, but also to help ourselves.  

So just as we advocate for patients and talk about giving them hope and destigmatising, whether it is stress, burnout, mental health, whatever reasons it is, life events that happen that make us take a break from work.  

We do that for patients and it's equally important that we self-advocate and also for each other as a profession. So we use those same skills. You mentioned that in psychiatry you've learned not only to help patients but to help yourself as well. And again, you are a fantastic ambassador for psychiatry. So really some useful insights. 

Radhi Gupta  

That's so kind of you to say that and I hope I can live up to those words. 

Ananta Dave  

No, no, and I think whatever form your journey takes and you know, even if there are any more unexpected twists, I think you've learned some important things about yourself, some important skills, which I'm sure will never go waste. And wherever you work, in whatever capacity you work, Radhi, I'm sure you'll be an asset to the profession, to patients and to all of us.  

So I want to say a huge thank you to you for sharing your story so openly and so honestly and giving us some very useful practical tips to look out for when colleagues want to take a break and we want to support them to return to work.  

Again, at the end, a plug for the Thrive and Psychiatry campaign. The first podcast has already been released. Do have a look, people. If you haven't seen it already, we are covering various topics over the podcast series and taking a break is one of them. So thank you once again and also do give us feedback both about this episode and also other episodes and the campaign in general. And thanks, Radhi. 

Radhi Gupta   

Thank for having me again. 

Interview 2: Ananta interviews Dr Maria Casserly 

Ananta Dave  

Hello, I'm now delighted to welcome Dr Maria Casserly, who works in Scotland. And Maria, welcome.  

And I just wanted to say firstly, thank you for taking part in our podcast campaign and for generously giving us your time. I just wanted to take you through a few questions and please take your time answering them about your experience of taking a break in your career.  

So can I just begin by asking you to tell me briefly about yourself - your name, where you work, what stage of your career you're at and then we'll move on to the other questions? Thank you. 

Maria Casserly 

Thank you for having me. So I’m Dr Maria Casserly, I’m a specialty doctor in Addictions Psychiatry, and I've been working for the last three years now at the addiction service in Aberdeen. 

Ananta Dave  

So if you could tell us Maria what led you to take a break, you know, for how long you took the break, what were the reasons, and also perhaps then tell us what worked for you during the break and what could have gone better? So just in brief about your experience of taking a break and what led you to it? 

Maria Casserly 

So I had taken quite a planned career break between core training and now. 

I did medical school in Scotland and did foundation training in Scotland, and I went to Aberdeen into core training, and because of my partner's work, we knew we would have to take a break for them to go and further their career in a different country, where I would not be able to easily work as a psychiatrist. 

 So this had been something on the agenda for the for a while. And I know that is a is a luxury and in terms of reasons for a career break. So we were thinking about it and obviously thought it would be best for me to try and finish exams, finish training and then go. As it happened, I finished core training, was successful at that and completed my MRCPsych, and then I had to take a LAT post - and that's a locum appointed to training, which was quite nice, again it gave me the benefit that if I wanted to join training and we weren't going abroad, I could bank that, as it were.  

So I tried to try to think about it from that point of view, and then, I had a child and then we went away. So, so it was a very planned career break in that way. 

And it was planned in a way that would hopefully give me flexibility when I returned, that I would have got to a stage in my career where maybe there was a natural break.  

Maybe people do take time out of psychiatry or change what they do within psychiatry, because we had the benefit of it being decoupled into core training and high training, I thought that wouldn't disadvantage me.  

There weren't a lot of role models for that though, so I was fairly winging it. And I had some brief discussions with people about that, but nobody could really advise me. And I remember at the time the advice from the BMA was to work in this other country where it's very difficult to work. 

So, that was the sort of advice I was getting, which was not helpful. But in my mind, and looking at the application to higher training, that was a natural place to take a break. 

Ananta Dave  

And thank you for sharing that story. I'm sure, you know, those who are listening to the podcast will find many things in it which resonates with them and which gives them some hope and some important pointers as to how people can approach taking a break, whether for positive reasons or for negative reasons. I also then wanted to ask you what your experience was like of returning to work.  

What helped? What didn't, and what is it that organisations can do to help people return to work whenever they feel ready? Thank you. 

Maria Casserly 

Yes so that was 2013 when I left, 2019 when we came back to the UK.  

I had done a little bit of keep in touch. Had been to International Congress one year and things like this.  

So, I had done that very gently though, I'd have to say, that's not that the College couldn’t offer that, but that was maybe my motivation, I would say. 

And so 2019, I come back, have another child and then we go into the pandemic. And so then things became a little bit muddier because my idea was I return to work and obviously everybody's lives look quite different.  

I had relinquished my licence to practicw because that is the advice. And that actually worked quite well for me in this stage. 

And of course, while we were in the pandemic, the GMC were emailing a lot asking for people to return to work. And so I decided, actually, this might be a step for me to go back to work, seeing it as a sort of a graded return. And this might be a nice way for me to test the waters about my confidence, my skills, working as a working mum, how the family would cope, what this process would look like. 

And I was feeling pretty guilty of being a trained doctor, not working in the pandemic. But when you're on a break, I think the confidence is really quite low and your self esteem, and you do sit there thinking, well, what can I help with on the ward? And some of that will come from being a psychiatrist that you think, gosh, what if I have to do all these skills I've not done for years, what could I help with, and other? 

It's about that confidence thing, that loss of role, it is so awful when when you are having a break, for whatever reason, I imagine. So then I worked as a vaccinator and then the GMC said, would you like your licence to practise back? And I said, yeah, okay, let's go for this. This is a process this way. And I think that we can come come to that again. 

But, I'm sure lots of people will mention returning from a break. You feel there's a lack of process there. In medicine, you're always spoon fed.  

It's the next jump and you take a break. You're making up your own return plan or that's how it feels.  

So I thought, right, the GMC, you've given me a plan. We're going to get my licence to practise back and then I have to get working because then the clock starts for appraisal and revalidation. 

I'm either going for this or I'm not going for this.  

I then approached - and I had kept in touch a little bit with my old colleagues at NHS, Grampian Psychiatry there, and had said, can I do an observership - and I’d read about this in the College documents at the time and there were suggestions for how much observership you might need to do. 

And so we set up a sort of a hub and spoke observership where I would go back to work with a team and be supervised by a consultant who I felt comfortable with, who knew a bit about me, who had had a positive experience with and that consultant was really great, looked through my CV and said, listen, this is your chance to try some new subspecialties. 

So we'll do a bit of retraining, off you go to all these core skills, as it were.  

Do shadow on call, shadow General Adult, shadow Old Age.  

But you've never done substance use. You know you've never done Old Age Liaison. Why don't you go and do these other bits and pieces you've never done? Rehab, why don’t you go and spend a week with them, and everybody was really quite supportive when I reached out to both people who knew me from before, and people who didn't know me.  

So we came up with this lovely plan, and it went on two days a week for quite, quite a while. And I also joined in with things like Changeover Day in August.  

So I went to all the junior resident doctor teaching.  

And I think that was really helpful. I tried to go to anything extra the College was offering. I did the present state exam course. I tried to patch together my own return to work.  

So then at the end of 2022, I've done this and I was offered a job by somebody on one of these placements. So I went to work as a locum specialty doctor, and then that became substantive after six months. 

 And then, you know, I've been there and I would say I'm thriving. I'm being helped quite a lot along the way by people who I have known previously but also people who haven't known me before and are aware of my story a bit. And I think they're sort of encouraging to me in that way.  

So now I have a number of roles, so in the College in Scotland I'm very lucky to be vice chair of the Addictions Executive now. 

 Also in Scotland I run a group called the Scottish Addiction Specialist Committee.  

So I'm meeting a lot of people as well, and people know about my break, my situation. And it's been great that people have taken me under their wing. Psychiatrists from the College, staff, including the College in Scotland are really great. 

 All the support staff there reach out to me about things that give me extra help understanding things, because a lot of the time I do have no context, and I always have this feeling that I have this nine year gap from psychiatry and, you know, and that's hard. I feel like I have to account for that, maybe make up for that. 

But equally, I suppose I'm proof that you can get back to work. And not only can you get back to work on a day to day basis, you can take on other roles, other roles for SAS doctors, other roles within your sub-specialty.  

It is possible. Hopefully I can be a role model for that, as we have some other really good role models in the College now for people who've taken breaks. 

Ananta Dave  

And a final question from me Maria. I just wanted to know whether there's anything else you think organisations can do, including the Royal College. What is it that we can do in order to support people who are taking a break and those who are looking to return? 

Maria Casserly 

Yeah... I think campaigns like this are essential, because obviously when I was returning, I was scouring the the College website for examples of documents about this, and all this media about this would have been brilliant, wouldn't it? I might have even reached out to somebody.  

So I think there's a couple of things.  

It's culture and then process, are the sort of two broad areas I would define. 

So can the College create a culture by where people feel this is an environment in which I can take a career break, so I don't burn out, I'm not working at - you know - half my effort, but I'm doing it in a way I want and after my career break, can I still get the career I want, in whatever way, shape or form that is? 

So I think the College sets the culture.  

Looking to colleagues, I was really lucky. As you can hear. I went back to a place I'd worked before. They were aware I was taking a break and coming back. That would obviously be trickier I think if you didn't feel you had the personal connection, because you're at a time where you are feeling quite vulnerable, and it's nice then to feel like they knew me before when I had these skills, maybe they'll let me have a go again. 

But that's not going to happen for everyone and I think as a College we have to be quite aware of that.  

And so how are we going to support those people to enter a culture that would be supportive?  

In Aberdeen we have an initiative called the CESR Fellowship Programme.  

Wouldn't it be lucky if - lovely if - we had a CESR Return to Work Fellowship Programme? 

 You know, that's both a culture and process thing that would help me out as I patch together my own return to work process, wouldn't it?  

It's not just the College, though, is it?  

I mean, it's lovely that we have a College that supports this and hopefully that helps recruitment and retention, but ultimately we've got to get better in terms of the GMC and the BMA.  

And that sort of brings me to the process of, could this look differently?  

Is there more that can be done on the ground for psychiatrists returning to work? What would return to work look like? Where would it be? Are there places that can do this, that can support doctors to return to work? 

I guess there's the mentorship then. And as you can hear, I've had really good role models along the way. Both psychiatrist and other staff have encouraged me and are encouraging me to thrive in this role. 

How do we do that? Is there a mentor program? I'm hoping that by putting myself out there, people could come back to me and ask about this and I talk to everybody about this. I'm like a broken record from the medical students up, that I have had a big break and I've done it, and they can feel they could approach me then and we could talk about that. 

That would be interesting. I think the elephant in the room is being paid to do this. It obviously cost us a lot of money to do six months of unpaid observership, at a time in the country where a lot of people won't be able to afford that.  

Maybe you've taken on caring responsibilities. Who replaces you in the home doing those things? 

There is always a cost attached, and what we know is the GPs and the nurses return to work in a supported scheme and there is any payments attached to that, because ultimately you've trained me up and I am now working for you and thriving for you in the workplace.  

So could there not be a give and take? 

Courses are also expensive. 

I'm a College member, so I'm paying less than other people.  

But if you're not a College member and a psychiatrist looking to return to work, you might have to email and have a conversation with the College about how can that be helped?  

Because these things are expensive too.  

And finally, there's the GMC. And this is where maybe the College and other agencies can advocate for us.  

But that was a really difficult process. The appraisals... I felt like I was being sort of held to account when I was made to jump through hoops. The appraisal process revalidation takes five years. It should be one appraisal every year. I was doing one every six months in that first 18 months of returning to work.  

So you've got somebody who's vulnerable, trying their best at work, trying to support a family, back to work for whatever reason. 

And I'm I'm being made to go through what feels like quite a judgmental, time-consuming process.  

And I'm being held... measured by standards held for doctors who've been working for 20 years.  

It didn't feel flexible. I was incredibly lucky again that NHS Grampian gave me an appraiser who's used to working with people who, maybe for different reasons, might struggle at appraisal, but not everyone will have that experience. 

So again, there needs to be a little thought I think onto how you are supported with your own particular challenges on the ground through the appraisal process and with the College to reengage.  

So, and I think campaigns like this can only put this on the agenda and get the culture elements out of there. The process thing might be bigger than just the College alone. 

I think just like everybody else doing the podcast and we've heard quite eloquently, from Dr Raka Maitra earlier in the week, you can do it.  

Go for it. Keep in touch with the College for it.  

There's lots of really good mentors, there’s now much more material, but I would go for it and people will see all your other skills that maybe you don't recognise. 

You've learned so much juggling your break, you can definitely get back there. And I would suggest psychiatry is a really good place for doctors who have other experiences that helps you in your practice as well as in juggling and thriving as a psychiatrist. 

Ananta Dave  

Thank you very much Maria for sharing your story with us and for giving up your time to do this podcast. To everyone who is listening or seeing the podcast, please do go to the website, the Royal College of Psychiatrists, The Thrive in Psychiatry campaign, and you can listen to previous podcasts. You can share your feedback about this episode or any other episodes, and also generally your views about the Thrive in Psychiatry campaign, and what more the College can do and what other topics that it can cover. Thank you once again. 

Interview 3: Ananta interviews Dr Toby Greenall

Ananta Dave  

Hello, Toby. Welcome to this podcast and thank you for taking part in this podcast series for Thrive in Psychiatry, where we look at the different ways in which we can retain doctors in psychiatry and help them thrive.  

And in this episode, as you're aware, we are talking about why doctors might take a break. It might be for reasons which are positive or it might be for reasons which they hadn't foreseen and which are presenting a challenge to them, and they need to take some time out in order to deal with it.  

So we're really delighted that you've agreed to talk to us. So could you begin firstly by introducing yourself fully, telling us where you work, what stage of your career you're at, and then we can, and you can move on to what led you to taking a break. 

Toby Greenall  

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks so much, Ananta. It's great to be here. So yeah, I'm a consultant psychiatrist. I've been a consultant now for three years, just over three years.  

And I work in the East Midlands in Lincolnshire on an acute female inpatient ward. And I also have taken up in the last year role as clinical director for our inpatient and urgent care division as well. So yeah, I like to keep busy. 

Ananta Dave  

Yes, I can see that. And but all the more remarkable that you've been able to spare time for us. Thank you. So could you tell us a bit about what led you to taking a break from work? 

Toby Greenall  

Yes, I've taken two breaks over the last four and a bit years for the birth of two children. 

So both were born through surrogacy.  

I'm in a same sex relationship. And so I took a period of time off when our eldest was born four years ago while I was still in training.  

And then I took a longer period of time off after our second son was born, who's just over one now. So yeah, and two different experiences I think, being in training and then being a substantive consultant and different perspectives on taking that time out. 

Ananta Dave  

Yes, indeed. And firstly, congratulations on your two children.  

And secondly, I think it's not something that is often discussed, you know, where people need to take a break to have a child through surrogacy.  

And also if people are in the same sex relationship and how that can pan out.  

I suspect these are not very easy things to talk about, or not something that is commonly discussed.  

So this is an opportunity, I think, for people who might be in a similar situation to get hope from what they're hearing from you, to try and understand how you've navigated this.  

So, is it possible to tell us a bit about how that break worked out, what was good about it, and what was challenging, and if there's anything that you would like to share that might help others? 

Toby Greenall  

Yeah, definitely. And I think as well, perhaps, you know, coming from a different perspective in terms of, you know, being a man taking time out, which is obviously, you know, is increasingly happening, but is still relatively rare.  

I think you do see those perhaps underlying assumptions or prejudices that exist in the support systems that we have and the way that people respond to people taking time out having kids, that does perhaps come into relief in a different way.  

And I definitely have experienced that a little bit over these two periods.  

So, I think the first time was probably the most easy. I was in training, I was actually taking an OOPI in medical education at the time.  

And it sort of came at the end of that OOPI year where I ended up just taking the four months at the end of that OOPER year away.  

And I'd sort tied up all the projects that I wanted to do. I'd sort of obviously known for nine months that this was going to happen.  

And so I've been able to sort of work with my supervisor and prepare really well to sort of get everything finished a little bit earlier than we'd planned. 

And then I just slotted back into training four months later and it sort of didn't really cause any issues.  

I think probably one of the things I reflect on now is actually four months was not a very long period of time.  

My husband, he runs his own business with his business partner and so was able to take more of a sort sabbatical period of time off.  

So he took a full six months off and then went back part-time, whereas I wanted to sort of get through training and get sorted, so I went back full-time.  

And I think it's interesting looking back now, know, no one sort of really said to me, you know, you're back quite soon after having kids, because I think most people's assumption is that, you know, there's someone else at home and, you know, you're in that situation and like a lot of men do, you go back to work relatively quickly but obviously our situation was somewhat different. I think then going back into training, know ST training is you know is intense in some ways but also you have quite a lot of flexibility so that definitely made it easier to just sort of adjust back in.  

I remember having a meeting with my educational supervisor that was sort of you know really supportive about how it come into training how I'd feel both having been out from the OOPI but then also having been out, in terms of having our eldest.  

So I think that probably was a relatively straightforward experience and didn't create too much challenge.  

And actually all the conversations I had, whether it was with the TBD or whether it was my education supervisor, everyone was just really supportive and pleased with it. It was just, yeah, it felt really positive.  

I think then probably fast forwarding three and a half years or whatever to then having our second son, I was in very different situation in a substantive consultant position.  

At that time I was the Associate Clinical Director.  

And I think the meeting that I set up with the clinical director at the time about me going, about our surrogate being pregnant and letting him know that I was planning to take six months off was the meeting that he had planned to tell me that he wanted to leave and was hoping that I would be sort of, was his sort of, his inheritance plan as it were, to step into the CD role. 

So as you can imagine that didn't go down so well.  

His escape route out of the role was sort of scuppered by me saying, actually I'm planning on being away for six months.  

And I think it is one of those real challenges where perhaps people's expectation... or people's sort of... without their knee-jerk reaction is of course as a guy you're going to just return straight back to work, you're going to prioritise your career, you're just going to keep pushing on and it's not going to have a big impact.  

Whereas we know that increasingly more and more people are choosing to do things very differently and really valuing that time spent taking the time off. 

And I think I’d also – I'd felt quite... going back after four months with our eldest.  

It had been really hard and I'd felt like actually you know I wish I'd had more time to spend that sort of quality time and have it and I knew that going back to my consultant post and particularly if I was then successful in becoming clinical director, I knew it was going to be really intense so having that flexibility was just not going to be there.  

So it did feel really important for me to say no, to hold my ground, with myself as much as the organisation to say no, I need this time, it's really important.  

It's not something that I'll ever be able to get back. And I think it was someone that said to me, Toby, at the time we said, and we had discussed we weren't gonna have any more kids, it's a really special thing that you get to take, A, have this time with your child when they're very little, and B, take this time away from work, do something very different and prioritise that.  

So yeah, it was really important.  

We then had a really challenging time where our surrogate unfortunately had some early contractions and there was some concern that she might deliver really early I think in like week 36.  

So I think the first time it happened was week 32 or 33, and we didn't go out to the US because she was based in the US.  

But then at 36 weeks, she actually ended up on the labour ward and they were really concerned that she was going to deliver.  

So we jumped on a plane and went out to Chicago.  

She actually ended up going to term, but having to quickly sort of get out there and just cancel everything and respond to things.  

And again, I think people are a bit like, oh wow, this is, you know, a relatively unusual situation, the fact that I was suddenly in America and, you know, in this situation. 

 But yeah, I think again it was that thing, as the time went on and once Frank was born, there was that sort of guilt feeling that set in of, I've left my team, they're being supported by a locum consultant, getting messages of, oh we can't wait till you get back, and also knowing that you know, that my boss, the clinical director was desperate for me to come back and step into that role.  

And I think what's hard then is you then sort of... there's some pressure in a way on the time that you're spending. It's not just like, oh, I'm just doing this because it's a nice thing to do. I was like, oh, I've got to be like the best dad in this situation. I've got to really make the most of this time rather than just allowing it to be, and just letting myself enjoy it. It did add a little pressure to it. 

But I stuck it out, I think I maybe went back just under six months, maybe a couple of weeks before the six month mark. And yeah, so it was really valuable.  

Ananta Dave  

Okay, wow, there's so much to unpick there Toby and thanks for sharing that with us. I'm struck by how much you had to go through and deal with, you know, during both the breaks and in the first break, I think you were in a period of transition not only from, you know, being a first, you know, to becoming a first time parent, but also you were towards the end of your training and you had to, you know, you were going to become a consultant afterwards. So two big transitional stages in your life that you were dealing with. 

And you're right, four months must have felt quite short. But you also touched upon the very important point that we are now seeing more men taking breaks and being able to spend some time as parents with their newborn children, which is important, which is something that needs to be encouraged more and talked about more. And it's good to see you talking about that. And I hope the people listening to the podcast are seeing it. 

Take some hope, especially men who are, as you said, who may feel hesitant, who are feeling guilty, who think sometimes, you know, I think we all feel we've got to be all things to all people, you know, try and do everything, you know, both in our professional lives and in our personal lives.  

So really difficult things to navigate and look at. But the important thing you touched about also is about giving yourself permission, which then you know, led you to asking for that break, the second time around, a slightly longer break, and then giving yourself permission to take the break and, you know, making a strong case for it and realising that this was an important part of your life too.  

And I think if people are allowed to take the break when they can, it makes them come back to work stronger and able to continue longer.  

So there are benefits in terms of what the teams, you know, can see as well isn't it if people are able to do the things that are important for them and come back.  

So, some really important messages there and hopefully it gives permission to people who are listening to it who might find themselves in similar situations and wondering what to do and that feeling of guilt that you talked about, so important to overcome isn't it before we are able to do that?  

So thanks Toby, on the whole from what I could gather you were able to take the breaks without too much of a problem, although the second time round you were a consultant and an associate clinical director, but on the whole it worked out well and you came back to work and you've progressed in your work.  

You are - are you now the clinical director? Did you say you're now the clinical director? Yes. 

Toby Greenall  

Yes, yes, I came straight back into that role, yeah. 

Ananta Dave  

Yes, so you were able to develop in your role. So I think therefore you've touched upon what it is like to return to work. Is there anything else you would like to say about returning to work and what that felt like? Any other reflections about the return? 

Toby Greenall  

Yeah, I think we're really lucky that my husband - being his own boss in a way - has that flexibility and I think the flexibility and managing childcare and juggling all those things, it does take a lot, and we don't have a lot of family support around us. Family are mostly quite far away.  

So it has been a lot of trying to make sure that we had all those things in place, which is a real challenge and I think we're really privileged in the situation we are in.  

I think the financial aspect also plays on your mind as you're going through, particularly if you're the main earner in the household and you can see your salary, sort of being chipped away as the time goes on.  

That's a really big consideration, so I think that adds sometimes to the pressure of making the most of the time because you know that there's a financial impact. 

Yeah, I think I get real value from my work. I really enjoy my work.  

So, you know, I didn't feel begrudging to come back. But I think it has been - it has definitely been a challenge trying to make sure that I find that balance and have both the time space but also the head space for the boys, and getting that sort of balance right is so important, I think, and not always easy. 

Ananta Dave  

Now, thank you for being so open.  

As you mentioned, the financial challenges, you know, the perceptions around the parent who is not giving birth taking a break. And in your case, which we haven't even talked about, but I can understand, the additional logistical planning and issues around going through the surrogacy process, which itself can be quite demanding. 

 So there are so many things there. And hopefully people, as I said, will take heart from the fact that you have done it, you've done it twice, and that it can happen. You can take a break, come back, and thrive in psychiatry as we are trying to demonstrate.  

So, towards the end, I mean, it's my last question, I think. I want to ask you what more do you think organisations can do, whether it's an employing organisation or the Royal College of Psychiatrists?  

What are the things you think they can do to actually support people who might be wanting to take a break? You know, psychiatrists at different stages of their career wanting to take a break for different reasons. 

Toby Greenall  

Yeah, think for me, a lot of it is around clarity in policies and making sure, you know, I think my situation was somewhat unique.  

And so a lot of it was sort of muddling around in terms of policies, because it wasn't really clear about, you know, what the terms were, for example, in terms of leave and parental leave for surrogacy.  

So I think, you know, thinking as broadly as possible, you know, how can we support men to have shared parental leave, for example, how can we support people in different circumstances to have the support they need both financially and in terms of in terms of the leave they can take.  

I think it is, you know, things like this and seeing the role models and people that you know recognising exactly as you've said that people have done it before, it is possible and it is something that's really valued and I think that then leads on to that sort of socialisation of these sorts of changes that actually, you know, it becomes the norm or it becomes something that's completely accepted and you know, so that you know as many people perhaps would ask would ask a man coming back to work after birth, you know, that's relatively short, you know, are you okay? You know, did you did you want more time, you know, rather than just assuming that the two weeks is enough because we know that it can be really tough to come back after the statutory two weeks.  

So yeah, those are probably my take-homes really. 

Ananta Dave  

Excellent, excellent take home points and I'm going to (a) go and look at our policies or the resources we have on our Royal College website to see how we can add to those and (b), I think the take home points about don't make assumptions, you know, in your case about say men or those who are not giving birth taking parental leave, don't make assumptions and think as broadly as possible.  

So you are taking into account different situations, isn't it? So excellent take home points.  

And again, a reminder to people, we do have as part of our Thrive in Psychiatry campaign, a website link, a place where you can feedback, leave your thoughts, add resources and share ideas as to what else we can do in this campaign, you know, over the, you know, not only in this campaign, but in the future, what are the things that we can cover?  

So thank you, Toby. I'm sure your account of taking a break will give, you know, will be food for thought for many people. And as I said, give hope and encouragement to many people in your situation. So thanks once again for being a part of this podcast. 

Toby Greenall  

Thank you so much, Ananta. 

Interview 4: Ananta interviews Dr Sarah Beaumont 

Ananta Dave  

Hello and thanks Sarah for joining us for this edition of the Thrive in Psychiatry podcast. So could you begin by telling us a little bit about yourself, your name, where you work, etc. 

Sarah Beaumont  

Yeah, no bother. My name is Sarah Beaumont. I'm an ST5 in Intellectual Disability psychiatry and I work in sunny Northern Ireland. 

Ananta Dave

That's lovely. So in this podcast, we're covering the topic of psychiatrists taking a break and I know that you have taken a career break so we wanted to know what led to you taking a break and how that worked out for you? 

Sarah Beaumont 

I was initially meant to take a planned career break to go over to America to look after some in-laws who were ill.  

I was working a LAT position in Addictions Psychiatry. I had finished my foundation training, just hadn't done amazing at interview and got offered a LAT position.  

But unfortunately, just prior to my planned break, our eldest son was diagnosed with brain cancer and that led to a very unplanned and prolonged career break in 2013. 

So that was unfortunate.  

I had never intended to take a prolonged career break after going through medical school, completing foundation training, it's quite a struggle to get to that point.  

But for a while I was just mum, and was walking that childhood cancer journey out with my son. 

Ananta Dave

Thanks Sarah, so my next question is about returning to work after the break. Could you tell us how that happened and whether it worked out well, and what were the things that went well and what were the things that didn’t go so well when you were returning to work? 

Sarah Beaumont  

So during my break, it wasn't really a full career break. I worked in some private occupational health once a week just to pay the bills and to keep registered.  

We did end up going to America to look after some sick relatives and I homeschooled the kids during that time.  

I was out of medicine completely for probably two to three years and just prior to coming back, I knew I wanted to work and my goal had always been psychiatry from  medical school.  

So I arranged an advanced life support course for the month I returned to the UK, and I did a lot of BMJ learning modules, and started asking my old areas if I could come back and work and approached a Northern Ireland medical and training agency, but I left my career at a very tricky point.  

I was a medical orphan and nobody had any obligation to me, any responsibility for me. 

So that was a very tricky time, because I wasn't in a training post to try and come back.  

The people at NIMDTA were lovely on the most part in the psychiatry area, but they really couldn't help.  

And at that point, any clinical placements or shadowing was completely stopped. 

So I couldn't get to shadow. I couldn't get any clinical experience that wasn't paid.  

I asked if they had any empty slots in their rotas, F2 level, and they said that if I wasn't confident enough, I would have to go do F1 again.  

So that wasn't really supportive. I didn't find any particular way forward.  

They hadn't dealt with anybody like me before.  

So I had no choice really but to go to a locum agency, which I didn't really want to do.  

But I got work almost immediately in an empty slot in the hospital I had initially done my foundation years in, and had to complete my CREST form which was my proof that I had capabilities which was not an issue. 

It was very difficult returning though, when you have to tell your story over and over and over again and it's been quite an emotional one.  

It's tough, it really is hard to keep having to tell your story to be told, I want to help you with no way to help you with no method for this. Try somewhere else. So that was very tough. 

Ananta Dave 

That does sound tough. So looking at your experience, is there anything that organisations and the Royal College can do to make it easier to (a) take a break but also when returning from a break? 

Sarah Beaumont 

Yeah, for sure. 

Ananta Dave 

Yes I thought you might say that, so what kind of things have you got in mind and what sort of things can be improved? 

Sarah Beaumont 

Absolutely, there can be a lot done to improve the system.  

I think if, regardless of what level you leave at, particularly if it's been in an unplanned way that's involved some tragedy, I think there should be a set pathway for people who want to come back to work.  

I am in contact with other doctors who have had not dissimilar journeys to me, and it's a battle to get back into work.  

And these are some of the most resilient, even though I hate that word, I hate the word resilient, these are some of the most resilient people I know.  

I think our system has to be resilient and flexible, instead of placing that upon the people.  

The fact that we have been through life circumstances and want to come back is a real positive quality and we need to make it easier.  

We need to have a formalised way for people to return so that our local training agencies do know how to support us and do feel confident that there is an approved route.  

I think what also has helped locally here in Northern Ireland, I've had great experience of supervisors being hugely supportive and allowing me to go to hospital appointments for my children.  

That's been wonderful. I've been flexible back and working longer hours when I need to. That's a great example, but that's very much depending on who you have as a trainee, as a supervisor and the system being flexible enough to allow the additional caring needs that comes with complex childhood illness. 

Ananta Dave

It's good that there's positives as well and that you’ve been able to identify things that can be improved. Just before we finish, is there anything else you wanted to say? 

Sarah Beaumont  

I think bearing in mind there's a whole range of reasons why people take a break.  

But some of those reasons may be complex caring needs, and bearing in mind that that journey is not likely over, that there is continued complex caring needs that do continue and being hugely supportive of colleagues who are walking that journey because they've struggled enough to get back to work.  

They need flexibility and resilience within the system to enable them to keep working and keep progressing. 

Ananta Dave  

Thanks, I just wanted to ask you, I understand that your son is doing much better these days and he’s in a good place, so that must be such a relief to you and you must be so happy? 

Sarah Beaumont  

My son is in good health. We got discharged from cancer services about three weeks ago - that recently. It's been a long 12 and a half years. We're not, we'll never be discharged from hospital completely, but we are truly blessed to have them with us. 

Ananta Dave

All right, ok, that recently? That's really wonderful. Thank you for sharing your story with us Sarah, and for joining us on this podcast. 

Sarah Beaumont  

Thank you. 

Fifth interview: Ananta interviews Dr Mary Barrett

Ananta Dave 

Hi Mary, thanks for joining us for this edition of the Thrive in Psychiatry podcast series, and we would love to welcome you here, and we are waiting to hear your story, so could you just begin by introducing yourself, your full name, where you work and what you’re doing at the moment?    

Mary Barrett  

Yes of course. So my name's Mary Barrett. I'm a consultant psychiatrist for adults with intellectual disability and I work at Leicestershire Partnership NHS Trust and I've been there since 2008.  

I completed part of my higher specialist training less than full time and I've carried on throughout my consultant life working in that format. 

Since 2023, I've been the Specialist Advisor for Less Than Full-time Training for the Royal College of Psychiatrists.  

And then since July last year, I've been the champion of flexible working and support for my trust. And I really took on that trust role because I felt I needed to understand the ‘on the ground’ issues for my Royal College role. 

Ananta Dave 

Thanks for that, now I know you are here today to talk about the SuppoRTT programme for psychiatrists who want to take a break, and of course this edition of the podcast is about psychiatrists who want to take a break in their career for various reasons, so could you tell us a bit about the programme you’ve been running, the SuppoRRT programme, I’m really keen to hear about that and I’m sure the listeners and our members will be too. 

Mary Barrett

Yes, so SuppoRTT stands for Supported Return to Training. It's a national initiative, it's been in 萝莉视频 since April 2017 and what it aims to do is to help all doctors in training who've been out for a sustained period - and we say three months or more - to come back to training safely but also confidently. 

Now we have to be clear it's the Deaneries, the Health Education 萝莉视频 areas that manage this and they hold all the information about when the doctors are due to return.  

I work in Health Education East Midlands.  

We have a School of Psychiatry Support Champion, Jamuna Prakash is ours, that the Deanery employs in that role.  

But I do know there's other Deaneries where they just have a champion across the Deanery and Health Education North West is one of those. 

So if I go on to my role, each NHS Trust in 萝莉视频 appoints a SuppoRTT champion. 

The main bits of that role are firstly to support the doctor in training to navigate that return to training process. So we help them develop a support plan.  

We signpost them to trainings and it's important that we're just actually approachable and contactable if they've got any queries because obviously people are often feeling quite nervous or worried about coming back after a period out.  

Another big part of my role is to work with the psychiatric and educational supervisors and also the TPDs to help them understand SuppoRTT, what the SuppoRTT plan is for the resident doctor that they're working with and what they need to do as part of that.  

Mary Barrett

It's probably worth just saying what the SuppoRTT plan is about. Well, it's individual for each resident doctor because each one comes with different needs and questions. 

You know, some are out of training because of they've had a child. Some are out of training for health reasons.  

Some have actually left medicine for a little bit and then are coming back in. So it's very much an individual thing. But there are a few common things that will come up when we meet. 

If people have been on maternity leave they'll want to plan their KIT - Keeping In Touch days - and if they're on shared parental leave it's split days so it's knowing how that works and what you can do with it and people often have questions if they've sort of been on a period of time about ‘how do I use my accrued annual leave?’. 

 And also people are often not clear about who does what. So what do they go to their psychiatric supervisor for as opposed to their educational supervisor. So we go through all that. 

And it's worth saying as well, that as well as the basics in-house that the Trust can offer, the SuppoRTT programme does have lots of other options that I get the residents involved in, such as they might need a period of enhanced supervision, but they might need particular training courses or coaching or mentoring and SuppoRTT run quite a few workshops every year.  

In the East Midlands we've had two so far this year, one around managing workload and one around avoiding imposter syndrome, and they're really useful for the residents to go to and they can often go to them before they return to work because they're normally held online. 

Ananta Dave  

That's really interesting, you say it's been running for a few years, have you been able to gather some feedback for the programme, so can you tell us a bit about how it’s been received and what’s worked in it and what you think could be better?  

Mary Barrett 

OK, so the feedback I'm aware of is our local feedback, which is really positive.  

Everybody who I've been reaching out to has found it really helpful. Some people have just needed a quick chat over email.  

Others I've met with several times and then supported them to meet with the relevant people in the education system and get the additional things they need.  

And I know I've supported quite a few people who have been really quite worried about returning to training for different reasons and all of them have come back in fairly smoothly and when I've checked in with them after their return there haven't been any significant concerns.  

So I think on a local level I've seen it work well.  

I don't know more nationally if there's any specific feedback for the whole scheme around retention, but certainly my personal experience has been helpful, and I think it's also been helpful for the educators, because it can be really quite daunting to be presented with a resident doctor who's returning to training who has particular needs and you're not quite sure what to do about that, and having a champion around to help with that is often really useful. 

Ananta Dave  

That's excellent. So would you recommend it to other nations as well? 

Mary Barrett  

I definitely, the acid test for me is the positive feedback that we get locally, but I know because with my College role I speak to residents from other nations and it's something they certainly would like to have the opportunity to have access to something similar.  

I mean, I am aware that other nations have their own systems in place but this programme in particular with its focus is really, really helpful. 

I think the other thing to say is for me, I'm fortunate because in the East Midlands we have a network of support champions. So we meet - I'm not just linking up with psychiatry support champions, I'm linking up with surgical ones, with GP ones, so we get a much wider feel for what's going on and what the challenges are.  

And we're very fortunate in the East Midlands, we've got Caroline Brown, who's an Associate Postgraduate Dean, who's got the support portfolio and she's really great. 

You can ask her anything and you don't feel silly to ask questions that you think, I should know the answer to.  

So we've got our own support network and we find it really useful.  

And I think the only other thing I'd say is, even though this has been around in 萝莉视频 since 2017, I think a lot of educators still haven't really got to grips with it.  

So having a local source of support, somebody to come to with queries, helps the educators as well.  

So I'd certainly encourage if anybody was interested in applying to be a SuppoRTT champion to do it, I think it's a really valuable role and one you'll gain from and also you can give back both to your trust and to the wider training system through doing it. 

Ananta Dave  

OK, thank you, thank you for joining us today Mary and telling us about this innovative programme and thank you for all that you do for the College and for resident doctors and psychiatry in general and thanks so much for taking part in the Thrive in Psychiatry campaign this year. 

Mary Barrett  

You're welcome.