萝莉视频

Hello everyone, I’m Ananta Dave, and I'm the Presidential Lead for Retention and Wellbeing at the 萝莉视频.  

I'm delighted to be here today to continue our Thrive in Psychiatry series, which is a series of podcasts where we look at several aspects of retaining psychiatrists in the profession.  

And over the six weeks of this campaign, we will be talking to various psychiatrists in different parts of the UK at various stages of their careers, and asking them and discussing with them as to the things that help them continue in the profession and those issues which might pose a challenge. 

Now, people might be aware that this year the Choose Psychiatry campaign morphed into the Thrive in Psychiatry campaign because as a College and as a profession, we've been successful in recruiting psychiatrists. 

 But we find that retention at various stages of their career is a different issue altogether.  

And there have been challenges in retention.  

So whether we are talking about resident doctors who are in training, whether we are talking about SAS doctors or whether we are talking about consultants, locally employed doctors, doctors working in the private and independent sector. 

Each of these groups have had challenges with retention in psychiatry.  

So we began our campaign on 28 October where in our first podcast, we covered the issues of doctors who might face challenges due to them having complex caring responsibilities outside work. And we spoke to Dr Raka Maitra, and we also looked at what it feels like for a neurodivergent doctor, a psychiatrist, to be working in the sector today in the mental health care services. 

 And we spoke to Dr Shevonne Matheiken. In the same podcast episode. I also spoke to Dr Derek Tracy, who is the Chief Medical Officer in one of the London trusts, South London and Maudsley, and looked at what it is we can do to encourage leadership positions in psychiatry.  

So this week we'll be talking about the experience of SAS doctors in psychiatry. 

So SAS doctors, as you know, comprise various groups. But we have specialty doctors, associate specialists and specialist doctors. And I have two doctors with me here in the studio and two doctors whom we spoke to at a different time.  

So four SAS doctors in total who've spoken or who will be speaking about what it feels like to work in psychiatry as a SAS doctor and what it is that they feel we can all do. 

So I'm going to start with Dr Abdul Oredola. Welcome, Abdul. And I'm delighted that you're able to join us today for the podcast.  

I'm going to ask you to introduce yourself briefly by giving us your name, where you work, and what stage of your career you are. And then I'll move to, you Noni. But let's start with you, Abdul. 

Abdul Oredola:  

Thank you. Ananta. My name is Abdul Oredola. I'm an associate specialist with Berkshire Healthcare Foundation Trust. I’m also the SAS tutor  for the trust and... what stage am I? I think I'm still midway through, and, recently I've started working on getting, approved clinician status and that is an ongoing work I'm doing at the moment. 

Ananta Dave:

Thank you. And how many years have you been working in psychiatry? 

Abdul Oredola:  

This will be my, almost this will be my 20th year. 

Ananta Dave: 

Wow. Amazing. Amazing commitment and dedication to the profession. So thank you, Abdul. Thank you for being with us. And I look forward to, you know, having that conversation with you during the course of this podcast.  

But welcome. Noni -now I've addressed you as Noni, but I know that your name is Gethoni Kamau but you like to be called Noni. 

So tell us a bit about yourself. 

Noni Kamau:

So. Yeah. Hi, my name is Noni Gethoni Kamau. And I am a specialty doctor working in South Wales in Powys. I am also the SAS rep at the College for Neuropsychiatry and I'm also the Powys rep to the local, our regional Welsh College as well. Yeah. So I've been a specialty doctor I think seven years or eight years now. 

So as compared to Abdul, I'm still early on in my career. Yes. 

Ananta Dave:  

Excellent. And you have many more years to go. So really good to have you here. And also, I think good to have your different perspectives. One of you, you, Abdul, coming from Berkshire in 萝莉视频 and, you Noni, talking about your experience in Powys, Wales. So it's also good to get those different perspectives along with being at different stages in terms of the number of years you've spent in psychiatry. 

So I'm going to ask you both the same question, but I'll start with you, Abdul.  

So tell us a bit about your journey to becoming a SAS doctor and to where you are today.  

And that includes various things, you know, the specialty you work in or your interests. And what led you to doing the things that you are doing now that you've told us, you know that you do as part of your own. 

So a little bit about your journey as an SAS doctor. 

Abdul Oredola:  

All right. Thank you very much. My journey started just about the time I left core training. At that time my wife was, starting, she was retraining to be a nurse and had to go back to university, and the challenges were so immense on me. I had two grown children with increasing needs, and I had to make a choice at that time whether to stay in training or, go out of training and look for flexibility that fit that life at the time. 

So I decided to start locuming. And that gave me some flexibility. 

So I was able to work in various subspecialties doing six months here, a year there. Eventually I started locuming with the trust I work with now, and I was with them for a year, and I found it a good fit for me. 

There were lots of opportunities I couldn't tap into at the time because I was locuming. 

And eventually the opportunity to apply for the job I was locuming in came up and, I applied there and, I was appointed. And since then -  that was in 2017 - and since then, I've worked in - I work in Older Adult Psychiatry, and I've had the opportunity to work in the electroconvulsive therapy suite as part of my job. 

So I had a lot of options to diversify my skills and do other things even within that role, which in other, specialties, might not have been able to do so.  

These are part of the things that motivated me to stay within the profession and stay within the job.  

At some point, that was when Covid hit.  

I was part of a group of doctors that volunteered to manage the Covid ward.  

And I found my voice in advocating for other colleagues during that time because there were lots of issues that when I arrived and and that was where my journey as SAS rep began.  

Currently I also work with the College as SAS Lead and, like I said earlier on, I took on the role of SAS tutor in 2022 thereabouts and, yeah, it's been a fantastic journey and it's given me the opportunity to meet, you know, lots of people, not only here, we've met in several foras and, lots of fun and exciting doctors and, opportunities.  

So for me, being a SAS doctor, it creates a lot of opportunity to delve into different aspects of psychiatry that probably you wouldn't have the opportunity, in the specialties. So, it's been a long, torturous journey in a way, but it's been enjoyable mostly. 

Ananta Dave: 

Excellent. And I think, you know, in that account you've actually, as you said, shown us the breadth of experience that SAS doctors accumulate, you know, by working in various parts and various specialties. But then obviously, you, you know, you start working in one specialty for a period of time, but you really amassed a huge amount of clinical experience. 

And you learn to adapt as you did to various specialties and various ways of working. So that you just gave us a small glimpse, but I can sort of just guess how much experience you've gained. 

In a later question, we'll be talking about the things which have enabled you or facilitated you to develop in your career and those things which felt like barriers, but you've already alluded to the fact that you got some opportunities. 

You took up leadership opportunities, you took up a special interest in ECT, for instance.  

So you have already told us a bit about the way you've made progress in your career.  

So is it fair to say, Abdul, that although you started by saying why it is that you had to leave core training and, you know, you continued or you became a SAS doctor, but afterwards it seems as if you remain SAS by choice, which is also an important thing that we talk about, isn't it, that you actually find, the satisfaction and the fact that you can achieve your potential by being a SAS doctor? 

Abdul Oredola:  

That's very true, because I had the opportunity of going back to training because at some point things settled down.  

My wife is now a senior nurse somewhere. And the children are all grown up now, but prior to that, the opportunity to go back to training arose.  

I had to make a choice, but, I felt the role I was in was so satisfying that, there was really no point going back to training because I was developing where I was, the opportunity to either go on to be a consultant was there if I wanted, if I wanted to go to other aspects of psychiatry I could. 

So the flexibility that afforded me was there. And I also developed a passion for advocacy for colleagues and other healthcare professionals. And, I found a niche for myself, which I enjoy till today. 

Abdul Oredola:

The really important message there, I think, about being proud of the fact that you're a SAS doctor. You've done so much in that role and that it was an intentional active choice even when you had the opportunity to pursue your training. So thank you for that Abdul. 

And Noni we move to you. So a similar question about your journey to becoming a SAS doctor. 

And you know, what it is that you enjoy doing and what your working life is like today. 

Noni Kamau:

Yeah. So, for me, I never actually thought I would become a psychiatrist.  

Psychiatry wasn't on my radar initially.  

So I came to the UK. I did the usual, did my PLAB, and I got a job in acute medicine. That was quite brutal, but it was really a good experience to sort of learn the system. 

I was always interested in sports medicine, and so I applied, and got into a masters program in Cardiff. So I did complete my masters and I worked as a team medic.  

And I also got a diploma in football medicine as well.  

So that was where I was seeing myself going.  

But, sometimes when you wanted something for so long and you actually do it, it is not what... it wasn't satisfying. 

 I really enjoyed it.  

But it wasn't really paying the bills and it's more of a passion than - at that time - it's changed now, the field.  

But at that time it was still very new in the UK.  

So there was not much structure. So, a friend of mine told me, why don't you, you know, open your mind and try and go do something else? 

So they said, why don't you take a locum in psychiatry and see how that goes?  

It's going to be - it will be very relaxed. So I took the locum and I fell in love. I can't - I don't know what else to say, but I just felt like I found my tribe, so... 

So I started picking up more locum roles in psychiatry, worked in different specialties. 

And I eventually got a junior clinical fellow job, in North Wales, where I worked.  

And then unfortunately, Covid happened.  

So, at that time, I had planned to apply for training but then Covid started and every.. sort of, the landscape completely changed. 

 Once Covid had settled down, I had to really reevaluate, what it is that I wanted to do and, an opportunity to apply for a specialty doctor job came up and I took it, because I felt that I wasn't really ready to make a commitment into a training program.  

I felt very burnt out and, you know, I loved the job, but I just felt very burnt out at that time.  

So I took, a specialty doctor job in 萝莉视频, in the private sector with the Priory.  

And I had a really supportive consultant there, who really encouraged me and exposed me to so much. And I really never looked back. 

I liked the flexibility. I liked the, you know, I get to spend time with my family because that is one thing that I took from Covid is that, you need some work life balance. And I learned to be very protective of my time and to take care of myself as well.  

So I found that working in a specialty doctor role really afforded me that, that I could practise medicine at my own pace, how I wanted to do it. 

But I also was able to live my life and, you know, still, do other things that I liked on the side.  

And yeah, I've, I've never looked back. I've found that I, I've done sort of the General Adult. I moved around quite a bit in terms of the specialties, and I found that I really enjoyed, Older Adults. 

And that's the role that I'm doing now. So I work in that community, Older Adult role.  

And, yeah, I feel very settled and happy in the role that I am now.  

And I always try and, a passion is to incorporate my training as a sports doctor, sports and exercise and bring it into what I'm currently doing now in my role, yeah. 

Ananta Dave:

Wow, what a fascinating journey you've had into psychiatry. Well, it might be sports medicine loss, but it is psychiatry’s gain Noni.  

Thank you and thank you for sharing that story. It just shows how, as you said, you know, keeping your mind open and being able to face that right through that difficult situation just, gave you, you know, the opportunity of working in psychiatry. 

And I loved it when you said you found your tribe.  

And I noticed that both of you are Old Age psychiatrists, isn’t it, you work in Older Adult psychiatry?  

So clearly there's something there.  

But clearly that's also the need of the hour I think, as we have, you know, more adults, you know, being, living longer and more older adults who need mental health services or psychiatric services. 

I think clearly you both are fulfilling that role.  

But also, what I heard from both of you is in different ways, how Covid has shaped you as well. What you know, the way Abdul, you discovered your advocacy and Noni you were talking about, you know, learning about the importance of family life and work life balance. So how that has also given you some lessons. 

But the other thing that I want listeners and viewers to take away is how you're able to use the things you learned as a sports medicine doctor in psychiatry and how, you know, the, the wider experience and the learning that you got is put to very good use, isn't it?  

And Abdul, when I think at the time that you had when you took time out or when you know you were supporting your wife, those experiences also help you as a doctor, isn't it? 

As a psychiatrist? 

Abdul Oredola  

Yes. Just to, pick up on, the point of being older adult psychiatry. I mean, while I was in core training, I rotated through older adults, and, I had, I was seeing people in the community, and I just got that fascination with these stories I hear, you know, able to - being able to sit down with people and meet people who have done so much in their lives and, try and be as, supportive as I could be. And, I just developed that passion for the subspecialty.  

Yeah. So whilst I was, I mean, although it was a struggle at the time, we can't run away from the fact that you need to be able to survive to move forward. It was at the time, I was the only one, making an income as a junior doctor. 

As with time, at the time, it wasn't a lot, and it was a struggle. But you learn how to cope with adversity even in that struggle.  

And I had to make a choice.  

I remember talking to a colleague who was... we went training together at some point, and, I was at the end of my day, and I was wonder what I was going to do because I, I didn't feel I was able to forge forward. 

And he said, what are you doing? There are so many opportunities in psychiatry, in training.  

There are so many other things you could do. You don't have to worry so much. 

In locum... you determine what time you want to work, what time do you want to stay home and look after your family and, you'll be all right. And I took his advice, and I always thank him to this day for, you know, being that, support for me at the time, we can never underestimate the support of, you know, colleagues, when we open our minds and, share our thoughts. I mean, some such wonderful life lessons.

Ananta Dave:

And, Noni, you were talking about how you recognised that you were going through burnout and that you needed to, you know, do something different. So, once again, I mean, you were able to, you know, recognise that and do something which would help you through that, isn't it? 

Noni Kamau:

Yes, yes. Because I, I really enjoyed working as a psychiatrist. I enjoyed the, the specialty. I think it's in terms of trajectory in research and in learning, it's still all very new. We are learning so much, you know, so there's so much potential in it. But I didn't want to get to a place where I just hated it, you know? 

So I had to really had some have some tough conversations with myself about I want to still enjoy it and still be engaged in it, but I need to be very boundaried in how I plan my time, you know? So. And I've found that it can be challenging sometimes because I like working hard and I, I don't say no. 

So it was it was a learning curve to sort of be very boundaried to and learn to also respect myself in my own time. 

Ananta Dave:

So, you know, I'm going to ask the question again to both of you, and you can decide who goes first. But this is about the things that have helped you in your career, whether it is things or people, organisations, systems, whatever it is that have helped you, you know, progress in your career and grow, and things that you felt were challenges. 

I think you have, both of you alluded to it during the course of your answer so far. But if there's anything else that you want to add in terms of what's helped you and what's been a barrier, please just do - you know if you could share your thoughts and whoever wants to go first is fine? 

Noni Kamau:

What has helped me is, I've met some really supportive consultants during my time who, as I've mentioned before, who've always been very supportive and encouraged me to put up my hand for opportunities and to always put myself in rooms and places where opportunities can happen. So I, I feel very lucky to have that. 

And also, you know, colleagues and sometimes it's the kindness of strangers. You know, you meet a doctor in a conference and you don't know them, and they give you the best piece of advice or connect you in some really special way.  

So I'll say that has really been really helpful for me. Also very supportive, where I'm currently working now, we have a very supportive clinical director, and I think that is very important for a SAS doctors, having management also recognise what your role is and be able to support you and listen to you, to to what you have to bring to them. 

So I think that has been for me what has been really good about it. 

And lately, the SAS role has become more structured, you know, so it's not that we are navigating in the dark.  

We now have a lot of structure. We have a committee, we have advocacy, we have a voice. And I find that that's that scaffolding really helps us and other SAS doctors sort of navigate and gives us a potential to grow. 

Ananta Dave:

Thank you. And what do you feel have been some of the barriers, things that didn't help and you wish had been different? 

Noni Kamau:

Yeah. So I think a lot is unfortunately from other doctors, actually the most unhelpful things that I have experienced, you know, in this feeling that, as a SAS doctor, I am a failed trainee or I couldn't get into training and so I was forced to follow this path and sort of not being able to respect or recognise, that I took a different path. 

And so it's that sometimes feeling undermined, because I, you know, I never went into training or, you know, I, I don't have I didn't follow that formal pathway.  

I feel that sometimes that still persists and perpetuates.  

And, you know, because a lot of the SAS career is portfolio based and the amount of evidence that you have to give as compared to, you know, like for example, section 12, you have to prove yourself double than someone, a colleague who is in that training pathway at, you know, so I find that there's a lot of bottlenecks in the system, you know, systemic bottlenecks that are barriers, yeah. 

Ananta Dave:

No thank you. And I think, you know, many SAS doctors will echo your thoughts and, you know, have I have spoken to so many of them and I work with so many of them where, you know, they feel that within the profession they don't get the respect and that parity of esteem, as one of my colleagues has put it, you know, they don't get that. 

And I think that's a recurring theme. But I hope anyone listening to the podcast and to both of you will just get a sense of how your journey has been and how rich your experience and what you offer and what you bring to psychiatry. So thank you Noni. 

Abdul, what are your reflections on this? 

Abdul Oredola:

Yeah. I think I can relate with honest thoughts, But just to add a bit to that, yeah. organisational support is very crucial in helping SAS doctor thrive, and I've benefited from that for one.  

When I joined my current trust, although I had quite a lot of experience in psychiatry at the time, I started as a specialty doctor and, found out that, the trust already had a sort of, retention program in place where it recognised suitably qualified doctors and regraded them as associate specialist. 

And I was able to take advantage of that. I was supportive through it, by the consultant  I was working with, the medical director was supportive. Everybody was supportive. And, I scaled through that, the first application. So, it helped me gain recognition of my, experience and, what I bring to the trust. 

Since then, it's been an upward trend since then. At the moment, in fact, the way I'm seen in my field of work, there's really not a lot of distinction between myself and the consultant.  

We've kind of, managed the team, side by side. Really. And currently, again, trying to get approved clinicians status. 

 And the organisation is quite supportive of that. 

 And, that sort of helps doctors to, you know, one, stay in the profession, two grow in the profession. And these are the things that I personally have found really helpful working in psychiatry. 

In terms of barriers again, I echo Noni’s thoughts, sometimes, ignorance really from other doctors, other people do that don't really understand what your role is.  

If you're not a trainee, you should be a consultant. 

What is this group of doctors in between?  

And sometimes it doesn't help when publications go out and, SAS doctors are almost forgotten, or just mentioned in passing. And these are the kind of barriers we need to surmount. 

 And, like Noni said, things are changing.  

Voices are being heard, and the narrative is gradually changing and hopefully it will continue to change. And that's why, we do what we do to try to now make the SAS group heard. 

Ananta Dave:

Yes. Excellent. So, Abdul, I'll continue with you.  

You both have already told us the ways in which you've been supported, what has helped you. 

What more do you think organisations can do? Whether it is a provider organisation where you work in an NHS organisation, in the independent sector or indeed a professional body like the 萝莉视频, what more do you think can be done to help SAS doctors specifically in the profession, to help them reach their full potential and feel valued? 

Abdul Oredola:

I think there have been several programs that been introduced, you know, things like the SAS charter, the SAS six, these recognise supportive campaigns that organisations can key in to support and ensure that they fully implement all those kind of programs.  

If that is done, I think, most of the problem is solved because, if you look at things like the SAS charter, it kind of answers all the questions and barriers we face as SAS doctors, and if trusts and organisations fully implement them, half the job will be done. 

Ananta Dave:

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for that. Noni. Anything you want to add? 

Noni Kamau:

I think, you know, being in Wales, we have geography, we have different, the landscape is very different. 

I know, you know, we do have, we have recently formed, sort of a SAS, sort of Wales. Group and representation from each of the health boards that I know currently, there are no health boards that are signed up to the SAS charter and, you know, all these things. 

So I think in Wales we still have quite a long way to go. In terms of the systemic, you know, systemic challenges, we are still quite far behind with where 萝莉视频 is.  

So we are still having lots of challenges with getting section 12 or we have we really struggle with getting, SAS doctors getting AC approval. 

 It's been a real, real challenge. But hopefully, you know, the College, the Welsh College has really come on board and they're really, you know, I think the time has come now that we are all sort of on the same page and things seem to be moving, but I would say in Wales we might be - we are not exactly the parity of... you know the parity between the home nations is, is a little bit different. 

Ananta Dave:

Thank you. Now. There are no more questions from my side. Is there anything you both would like to say before we finish? 

Noni Kamau:

Thank you for having us and for giving us an an opportunity to talk about SAS, thriving in SAS, choosing SAS as a career. So thank you very much for the opportunity. 

Ananta Dave:

Hi Jessi, thank you so much for being a part of the podcast. I just wanted to say, could you start off by introducing yourself, where you work and a bit about you? Thank you. 

Jessi Kakani:

Good afternoon. My name's Jessi Kakani. I'm a specialty doctor working in forensic mental health services in Leicester. I work across a lower secure unit and in the community as part of a CMHT. 

Ananta Dave:

That's great. Thanks. So please can you tell us about your journey to becoming an SAS or SAS doctor? 

Jessi Kakani:

In brief, I have-  I've come to the UK in 1999. Sounds quite long ago – over 26 years.  

I did the usual thing, writing the PLAB exam and then applying for clinical attachments.  

Psychiatry was never on my radar as a specialty to take up. I had done my undergraduate training in India, so I was choosing a specialty. 

I tried - I worked through several clinical attachments: paediatrics, A and E, anaesthesia and psychiatry and, surprisingly, it turned out to be the best clinical attachment I've had.  

And my view towards psychiatry changed. I liked it. I asked for an extension of the attachment and during that time, I was offered a sudden two-month locum, to work with Prof Peter Jones in Cambridge on his on his ward. 

In those days, the communication was with fax - some of you might know the fax sheets that roll out of the machine.  

So when I went for the interview, he had a long roll of paper with hardly anything printed on it. And that was meant to be my CV.  

But, the most positive thing he said is, everyone has to start somewhere, and I've started as locum so you can have your start. 

So that was one of the most positive things at that time. 

That progressed to a six month locum in elderly ward and I managed to get on to the psychiatric training program.  

I was in the program for about three and a half years. And nationally, the training program structure changed, for all trainees, not just psychiatry. 

And it clashed with my personal circumstances and how the process was going to be. I had an opportunity to join us - in those days we were called staff grade doctors. We are now called specialty doctors. So, I had the opportunity to join the lower secure unit, and also work with, a community mental health team, as a specialty doctor. 

And I haven't looked back since. So, over the years, most of my career, it's 20 years now, it's been with secure care, complex patient, some community mental health work, but mainly in, kind of a specialty within psychiatry. 

Ananta Dave:

That's very interesting. So would you definitely say that you're a SAS doctor by choice? 

Jessi Kakani:

Very much so. 

I have had opportunities to go back into training or, do other pathways. But for me, the kind of work that I do, the specialist work that I do, and the work life balance that I get, and, it's definitely my choice. 

So good to hear. So my next question for you is what do you like about being a SAS doctor? And I think you've touched a bit about that. But if you have to repeat yourself or make some points again, please do go ahead. But what are the things that you like about being the SAS doctor? 

What I like, about being an SAS doctor is, as I've said already, the work life balance, being able to choose the specialty that you're working in. What I most enjoy is, consistently working with patients. You work with them long term. You can, you see them through their journey. And, you see their recovery process moving on. 

You also, get a lot of MDT working. You get to know your colleagues, you know how the system works. And, over the years, with your experience, you, you get the confidence that, you know you can deliver a good service and a good job. More recently, there have been many opportunities to widen the scope of your career, and there's a lot of job satisfaction. 

There have been opportunities to take part in education roles, in leadership roles.  

And, the recognition is gradually improving. So it is quite a positive job to take up. 

On a personal level the work life balance is good,. 

For me as, as a mum, in years ago, it, it gave a lot of stability to my family. 

 And as I've got senior in my role, I've kind of been able to do more within my job and job planning and try and make changes as well. 

And thanks for that. Is there anything that you find difficult about the role? 

There are several things I find difficult. 

One of the things is the kind of the attitude towards the SAS group of doctors, and I think it is within the whole system,. Having been a SAS advocate for the last, two and a half, nearly three years, I have noticed that even more, which is a bit sad, but I think things are changing.  

But they can be much better. And there's a huge reluctance, as well, in the trusts to recognise senior colleagues and make sure that they're recognised and put in the appropriate contracts. And that doesn't always happen. And for that small change to happen, I think every - I think there's a lot of, kind of thinking going on as to, why should we do this? 

Because I think seeing a lot of work is already done by senior, and by senior SAS doctors, and it's taken for granted that it's being done. But when it comes to recognition, there's always a question mark. Why – why?  But my question would be why not? 

As an advocate, championing for my colleagues, I find that there, there is a lot of having to shout out to the management or to, saying, look at this group of doctors. You've got a very valuable experience cohort. It's a huge resource that you can tap into, especially to - when you need a lot of psychiatrists to work within the teams to maintain the case loads, get good patient outcomes.  

There is this valuable group of doctors. So I think I would love to see much more progress on this. 

Ananta Dave:

To follow on nicely from what you are saying, what more can the College or other organisations, employers or whoever is in that kind of a decision making or influential role? What do you think that they can do to better support you and other SAS doctors? 

Jessi Kakani:

I'll start with the the positives. In the last few years, again, as I said before, lots of opportunities are being opened to SAS doctors, previously that were only open to either the trainees or to the consultants. But now people are able to speak up, they ask questions and there is a lot of listening going on. 

I know it can be better, but, there is listening, especially on the training side, development side and for example, different job roles, leadership roles, those opportunities are being opened to SAS colleagues.  

And that is excellent news. In other specialties, there is a lot of speech recognising the senior doctors, putting them in the right contracts and making sure that they retain the employees and continue to work and develop it more. 

That is happening more in other specialties and, I think we're quite low on the - kind of on the list of, on this particular front.  

It could be better and it could be good if that is reviewed. 

To other organisations. I think again, it is quite a large number of talented, experienced, doctors use this resource when, nationally, the money is tight 

Everyone has to do efficiency savings or make things work, and do more for less.  

I think it is worth being much more creative and taking that balanced view. And just kind of utilise this resource.  

And to my SAS colleagues, I would say you are valuable. You have a huge wealth of experience, value yourself and speak up. 

I think nationally this opportunity is there where you have SAS advocates, you have SAS six, the the charter, SAS charter, please be aware of them. And I think, just speak up. That would be my encouragement to my colleagues. 

So thank you very much for speaking to us, Jessi, and for giving your time so generously to the podcast. 

I would like to say thank you for this, opportunity to, kind of just talk about the SAS career. 

Ananta Dave:

Thank you for being with us today, Becky, and for taking part in the podcast. I just wanted you to introduce yourself. So could you tell us a bit about where you work, what career stage you are in, and your name? 

Becky Thomlinson:

Hi there. I'm Becky. I'm a SAS doctor in old age psychiatry, and I work at Sheffield Health Partnership University. NHS Foundation Trust. 

Ananta Dave:

Thank you for that. Can you tell us a bit about your journey to becoming a SAS doctor, please? 

Becky Thomlinson: 

I came from overseas, having been in a training program over there, having gone into older adult psychiatry for higher training, and then for family reasons, moved back to the UK. And pursued a job in Old Age Psychiatry as a SAS doctor. And I've been doing that ever since. 

Ananta Dave:

Thank you. So I just wanted to get a sense of, what is it that you like about being a doctor and as a follow up to that, what is it that you find challenging, if anything, about the role? 

Becky Thomlinson: 

As I've already mentioned, you know, staying in one place and the building of relationships has been really great. I also feel like, you know, you have a lot of opportunities to, to diversify and do very various things, as I'm sure you do as a trainee, in fact. But, you know, I still think that's really fantastic about my current job. 

And of course, I couldn't do that without the support of my colleagues and my trust locally.  

So they provide the time and the support for me to do other things, such as medical education. I'm currently doing my training to become an approved clinician. So, you know, I've been supported by my trust to do that. 

Being a Royal College representative, that's something that they supported me in doing.  

So I really love those things about my job in addition to my everyday clinical job, you know, so there's lots of varied things I can do.  

What do I find difficult? I guess I'd be lying if I said there was nothing. 

I think I struggle with my own internal battle about whether I should be more... I say more ambitious. I think what I really mean is ambition to become a consultant, versus being content with where things are at at the moment. 

But on the whole, and if I take a step back and I think about my own personal situation, I am actually really content with the way things are at the moment.  

And even if I decide not to pursue becoming a consultant in the future, I know that there are opportunities for career development and progression, as a SAS doctor. 

And that for me is very satisfying.  

I think the other thing that I find the struggle at times is that other people often don't know what a SAS doctor is and that includes the medical profession.  

And it's such a wide range of clinicians with varying degrees of experience that sometimes people don't necessarily know what your level of experience is, and that can be quite difficul 

If you're new to a team or interacting with other colleagues that don't know you as well. 

Ananta Dave:

Thanks so much. Becky, that's really interesting. So you mentioned the SAS strategy.  

And so the next question is what more can the College do? And indeed other organisations employing organisations do to ensure that they support SAS doctors, as best as they can. 

Becky Thomlinson:

I think one of the biggest sticking points at the moment, for specialty doctors in the specialist grade, is that progression from being a specialty doctor to becoming a specialist.  

And there's no, well, there are criteria for it, but, actually facilitating that seems to be a bit of a sticking point.  

You know, generally, not talking locally necessarily. 

And I think one of the things that can be done to support that process is a progression panel, for people who are specialty doctors but are looking at becoming specialist doctors. Yeah, that might may be one way of doing that. And that's being piloted amongst anaesthetists so I understand. So I'm hopeful that will come to psychiatry in the near future. 

But watch this space. 

Ananta Dave:

Thank you very much, Becky, for taking part in the podcast and for giving your time so generously to this. 

Becky Thomlinson:

Thank you. 

Ananta Dave:

Listening to your stories and, you know, we've had, two more SAS doctors talk to us, your personal journeys, your insights, as well as the things that have helped you, the work that you're doing hopefully not only gives hope to people who are SAS, you know, as you said, be SAS, be proud, you know, thrive, and you can do all these things and develop yourself so you've not only given pointers and given hope and shown people how you can get through a period of doubt or uncertainty or adversity to decide what you want to do and how there are different routes to working as a psychiatrist and finding that fulfilment.  

But also, you both have alluded to the work that's being done by the College and NHS and other independent providers across the devolved nations of the UK, although things might be moving at different at different paces. But we have the SAS charter, we have the retention charter, which we recently produced at the 萝莉视频, which talks specifically about SAS experiences and the need to help develop their careers and their potential. 

We have the SAS collective with the SAS six objectives, which the 萝莉视频 has signed up to. So I think there are things that organisations can already use as pointers in order to help them, make sure that they're developing and giving opportunities to SAS doctors to develop as they would wish and help them reach their potential. 

 So I hope people have found this informative. I've certainly found it not only very enlightening, but very inspiring as well to listen to your stories. Thank you. Once again for choosing and continuing and thriving in psychiatry, and for being SAS doctors and advocates for SAS doctors. Thank you.